Codezwiz >> Forums >> The Board >> Bush vs Kerry

Wolf: it twas my comment that you quoted soultaker as stating about outsourcing.

You are obviously passionate about your beliefs and that I respect. I'd rather disagree with someone with convictions than preach to an indifferent choir so to speak. Anyways - I think outsourcing (in the long run) is a good thing. You disagree and that's ok. I'm looking at the macro picture and you're looking at the micro picture. You cannot legislate hardship out of life. It happens to everyone. I am in no means wealthy in the worlds eyes. However, I want what I have and in that I'm rich with content. It's my belief that government address the macro needs of society and let people take care of themselves. I think we live in an age of entitlement where people live beyond their means and have this notion that they are entitled to a certain lifestyle without the means and/or effort required to sustain it. We are the richest country in the world....in history. Opportunity is everywhere. I have compassion for those who try and fail but disdain for those who fail by not even trying.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work.
--Thomas Edison

My 2 cents. I agree with gadford. If everyone (always a great way to start a sentance if you want to fire people up) would work hard, not expect a handout, and be humble enough to take whatever job they can get, we wouldn't even be talking about half of the issues we are.

The fairy tale doesn't start as a fairytale. I worked 2 jobs while I was a full time student to get through school. Then when I graduated...I worked in the basement of a guitar store. It was humbling, but I still had bills and wasn't going to give up. Eventually, after reading lots of forums and books, I learned more about computers and got a tech support job, which led to other jobs...etc, etc, etc. Long story short, work hard, expect the worst, and provide for yourself and you'll be doing alright at the end of the day.

Now regarding non-US products...where do you think your computer came from? Those mobos, cpus, RAM, etc weren't built in the US...neither was that monitor you're looking at. If it was, it would cost over a $1000 because the companies couldn't turn a profit paying US wages. Cost of living is a huge spectrum world wide...hence...overseas marketing = lower US costs.

Lower US costs = more affordability for low and middle class workers.

You can make more money flippin' burgers in a month than some people make in a year in other countries. It's not glamorous, but it's money...and money is money.

"The pursuit of easy things makes men weak" David O. McKay

Register

sorry for the misquote gadford and soultaker.

I totally agree with you about the "work" topic...although some areas of this country are very short of job opportunities. For example, I live in the boonies. The nearest city is over 20 miles away. Even a part-time job that is the most common to find here is not a smart thing to accept. With the costs of gas and other transportation expenses, any state and federal taxes taken out, and figuring that most will not give you a 8 hour day to at least make it profitable to go to work there it is a losing venture. We used to have alot more factories in the 15 mile radius, yet all but one have closed the doors and moved operations out of the country. That is just within the last few years. The one that remains hires a 80% Hispanic workforce, and the majority of them are seasonal workers. They can work for minimum wage alot easier than most can. It is a year round factory yet they seem to just switch family members around when the time comes for the visa to expire if they even have one. Two years ago INS came thru and that place was so empty that they just shut the doors till they could get more of the "cheap" workers back into the country. Even a few of the farmers in this area are starting to do the same. It's sad when a local person cant even find work at a farm for $4 an hour because somebody that is from another country can work for alot less than that. Now don't misunderstand me, I do not have any problems with a person from another country wanting to be a US citizen. The majority of the ones in this area are only here temporarily and think it's funny that they can take the few jobs away that we have in this area.

My point is where I live I see the bad sides of this economy firsthand unlike people who live in bigger cities. Most may never see the bad side of the economy or they refuse to allow themselves to see it. People in this area actually start verbal arguements over small temporary jobs like helping during the hay season on the farm. They only pay $3 an hour and yet still there is a long list of people wanting to do that just to make some money. So stating that "everyone" should work hard and the issue wouldnt be such a tough topic isnt always true for every location in the usa. I will admit that I do not make much money in the area I live in, yet I love being in this area for the nature and peacefullness. I would never move back into the city no matter what. You would actually laugh at the amount I make, yet for me it is enough to get by (barely). Would just be nice to be working full-time once again and actually not having to worry as much about where the next meal comes from. I am not the only one, nor is this the only area with this problem as far as knowing where the next meal is coming from. One out of every twelve families cannot afford to put food on the table (honestly that was just on the news...lol). The economy could be alot better like it used to be. Sometimes it seems like our president has tunnel vision on the war and seems to put aside the other important issues. If outsourcing jobs is the way to go, then why wouldnt preparing the country for that have been the sensible thing to do? I just believe it could have been done in a better way than it was and not with a loophole that gives companies tax breaks for relocating overseas. Almost seems like we got left standing behind the cow and the cow needed to take a huge one....and yes it splatters...lol

RedWolf

P.S. "I'd rather disagree with someone with convictions than preach to an indifferent choir so to speak" Well spoken...I feel the same way. Just hope that some of my words may have enlightened somebody about what it may be like to live in the "tough places" of this country.

Ohhhh, now you opened up the "illegals" can. See that's a whole different topic. I think we all agree on that issue. Track 'em down, put 'em on a boat and get 'em out. Illegals are stealing more jobs than anyone. And here's the irony, it's because they WANT it bad. Many have come from the worst of conditions to be livin' large in the US at $3 bux an hour. The problem is dishonest businesses that are willing to hire illegals to avoid taxes. They're more guilty than the illegals in my book. And it's nearly impossible for the government to find 'em. This will be an interesting topic to watch...

Well from what I know when it comes to INS and the illegals as you so put it. INS will not take the time to look into 1 or 2 illegals they want the whole lot of them per to say. And as for them taken the job, If I was a business owner and I had 10 local workers wanting $15.00 hr to work a job and then 20 "illegals" want to do the job for $6.00 I would hire the illegals makes me money. Now I (as the owner) know if I hire the 10 at $15 with in a year they will want more money. Do to the fact that they out grow their lives. But those "illegals" will do that job for the next 5 yrs at the same pay. Now I know this because after I got out of the service I worked in a factory building mobile homes. Now I made good money ($18.00hr) for about 50 to 60 hr a week. Then they started hiring the �illegals� to do the job they made the same amount of money I made but the company got that tax break that you talk about. Long story short that company went under, work their selves right out of a job. Now I have a job that makes some good money again but like you RedWolf I drive 45 miles one way to get that money. Don�t get me wrong I like money just like every other person in this country does. The more I make the more things I buy.

Now take those �illegals� they live in large family�s I have set back and watched them they don�t need that big house TV in every room car for every adult person in the family. Nor the biggest and best car with all the bells and whistle. They save that money buy a car that will make do for them and send money back to their families in their home country. We could stop take notes on this and learn some things from them. But know we must have that new car every 3 yrs my TV must be bigger than my friends TV. You know keep up with the Jones�s. So stop thinking that this country owes you something. This country has bigger things to do than to take care of people that want take care of their selves. We are the baggiest Super Power in this world, now if we stop going to the aid of these other countries, then what then. We will have even more �illegals� coming here to take that job from you. And then when all the little countries have been taken over and your products are block from coming in or going out what will we do then. Do you really think that all those US made products, every part of it is made here. No. That made in the USA shirt you have will that needle that was use to put it together was not made here, the ink to color it was not made here. So what do we do then?

And to you RedWolf I think you for making that ammunition, and yes that is a form of serves to your country.

You kept putting illegals in quotes. I think that's funny because they're called illegals because IT'S ILLEGAL! It's business owners and potential business owners that use your mentality to steal jobs from legit citizens. If you can't survive legally as a business...you don't deserve to be in business. That's the whole definition OF business.

Now, agreed, those "illegals" are more grateful of the lame work given to them. I respect that. They don't have pride issues and aren't expecting a handout. They are however BREAKING THE LAW!

I can't believe I'm having to even explain this. Illegal business practices ruin companies. You may save a few bucks short term, but where are you going in the future? If you build a business on integrity and sound practices, you're more likely to succeed. Plus, you have the added benefit of going to sleep with a clean conscience. Ever hear of ENRON?

And the whole keep up the Joneses thing? Sure, I see that as a problem with many Americans. But it's their problem, not mine, not the governor's, not the president's. I've got my beautiful 19" TV and my '92 Lincoln that drives great. To quote a crappy pop song..."it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got."

All "illegals" should be rounded up and removed from the country. They do steal jobs and they do have an effect on our economy, especially through the health system. Companies should be punished for operating outside the bounds of the law. With that being said...

If you are competing with "illegals" for employment, I think it might be advantageous to reevaluate your job skills. "Illegals" can only take manual labor jobs that a mule could perform if it had opposable thumbs. There is honor in a hard days work, but there is honor and more money in a hard days work for the educated man. Take your pick. Private corporations have no obligation to locate themselves in your backyard so you can walk to work. I moved 1500 miles for a good paying job with a growing company. If you're not willing to go to where the work/money is, start your own company.

The myth of socialism is far stronger than the reality of capitalism. That is because capitalism is not really an ism at all. It is what people do if you leave them alone. - Arnold Beichmen

I put the word �illegals� in quotes because that word was used to identify people that was not born of this country. That is not to say that all people that is not of this country is an �illegal�. So you cannot put everyone under this word. As a police officer that is a lesson I had to learn the hard way.

Well now to go back and have to say bad things about the government, it's the rules that have been set but not in stone you don't have to show proof of what you are but whom you are in order to get a job. Not saying that the owner does not know that person is illegal it�s not that hard to tell. But when there is no punishment for hiring that person you as the owner will take that risk that nothing will happen to that person with the INS. And if it does will just hire another. That owner is just like you and I, out to make money. Now this does not mean Bush is the blame it the lawmakers that have not changed this. This whole topic stated out with Bush and/or Kerry. Now Bush is doing his job and you and I are doing our jobs. And the �illegals� are doing their job. If you were they and live in a country like they did would you want to better yourself too? So we cannot blame the �illegals� So with that said Bush is doing a fine job and you cannot lay the whole blame at his feet. It�s the government not the person that we must blame and hind away to change. Now let us see where this goes.

Register

Actually not all companies that sell products that are "Made in the USA" use foreign equipment for manufacturing. Not sure if there is more, yet I can name one and that company is Harley Davidson. I do know people that work there and it is a "common rule" to only use American tools and equipment in the manufacturing of those beautiful bikes they create. Even the Japanese are copying HD and trying to take some of their buyers from them. In the short term they are doing that until that person who bought his Honda so cheap realizes it isnt worth the oil that is in it when it comes time to resell it. How does HD stay in business for over 100 years? A great product that is high in demand internationally and keeping production to a level to maintain that high demand level. I strongly believe that a company can survive paying their workers a decent wage, afterall Harley Davidson has done it for over a century and still going strong. I take pride in owning a HD. Even my so called American brand truck is not made in america anymore. However I cannot drive a bike each and every day due to the winters we have here in WI. So to claim that no company can survive without cheaper labor is wrong. And it is not just me saying that to you, the proof is in the Harley Davidson company and the numerous H.O.G. and other biker groups around this country and in other countries as well. Yes it may be one in a billion other companies, yet every great idea starts with only one thought. Other companies could learn from HD and so could our government, then maybe this "job" topic wouldnt exist at all.

"I can't believe I'm having to even explain this. Illegal business practices ruin companies. You may save a few bucks short term, but where are you going in the future? If you build a business on integrity and sound practices, you're more likely to succeed. Plus, you have the added benefit of going to sleep with a clean conscience. Ever hear of ENRON?"
I totally agree with that. When companies hire illegals to stay in business, they never lower the cost of the product, only line their own pockets with the extra money. Meanwhile that neighbor of yours is without a job due to an illegal taking it from him/her and now he/she cant feed his/her own children. Thats progress? Not in my eyes. Most companies need to realize that if a worker was faced with the choice of losing his/her job to an illegal or take a pay decrease, that American would still be working at that company for less money. Companies rarely ever seem to give the people that chance to even decide on that issue, they just get thrown out and replaced.

"So with that said Bush is doing a fine job and you cannot lay the whole blame at his feet. It�s the government not the person that we must blame and hind away to change. Now let us see where this goes."
So are you saying that Bush is not a part of our government? roflmao.... What was his job before he was president? I doubt he was working at Wal-Mart...lol. No, he was part of the government and STILL is. So how is he not to blame for this along with the other government officials?

RedWolf

Yes Bush is part of the government but he is only one of the many. One man cannot change the world for all. I often hear my co-workers talking about how they would change things for our dept. But when you ask them to stand by you to voice your opinion to the board they back down. We all must come together and make the change. Bush is doing his part, what are we doing. Posting in this topic will not and does not change anything. So we can keep this topic alive for ever and talk about what a bad job he is doing and how our jobs are going away. But I ask you, If your not happy with it what are your doing to change it?

soulltakers